Why Luxury Brands Are Bullish on NFT Digital Twins ft. Amanda Cassatt | Own Your Crypto: Episode 6

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TRANSCRIPT:
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Elizabeth (Host):Elizabeth Olson (Host): This week we're continuing the conversation around NFTs with the focus on NFT digital twins and why this has become the next big play for fashion and luxury brands and quite possibly mass adoption. We're going to do a quick round of introductions, turn the conversation over to our special guests and time permitting, at the end, we'll do a Q&A with our listeners. 

With that said, let's go ahead and set the stage with some definitions around NFT digital twins. What are these? These are about creating a digital copy of real world objects, and this can be applied to any physical object imaginable. Basically, creating a sort of non-fungible receipt, and this often can look like either virtual reality or 3D modeling. 

Technology can be leveraged here. What we're seeing are several advantages for both product manufacturers and users, which we'll be able to share more about when we get into this space. We've seen a number of high profile luxury brands as being the first to adopt the use of digital twins. For example, Nike sold Cryptokicks to give owners the ability to use the sneakers digitally and physically.

Breitling and Vacheron Constantin also invested in Arianee, a kind of digital passport for luxury goods. Dolce and Gabbana’s Collezione Genesi consisted of NFTs paired with a physical item and digital exclusive DG events. There's also utility benefits as well. The list goes on. It's a really exciting trend we're seeing.

While the general hype around NFTs may have cooled a bit amidst the bear market. We're now seeing significant trends of these luxury brands getting bullish on twinning innovation for their merchandise. 

We have several special guests joining us to share their thoughts around this topic, which we're super excited about. Everyone knows Ken Liao, CEO of Xverse. I'm sure you're also familiar with Louise Nakamoto from Ryder. We also have some very special guests: Jack, a wonderful NFT thought leader and collector, as well as Amanda Cassatt from Serotonin Marketing Firm and Product Studio and much more. 

With that said, let's do a quick round of introductions everyone. Jack and Amanda, we'll save you for last. Ken and Louise, can you start a quick introduction for those who may not know you and are joining for the first time? 

Ken Liao (Xverse): Sure. Hey, everyone. I'm Ken from Xverse. We are building an advanced Bitcoin super wallet powered by Stacks and Lightning. We are unlocking DeFi NFTs, and other apps on Bitcoin through Stacks, and enabling cheap fast payments using Lightning.

Louise Nakamoto (Ryder): Hi, guys. My name is Louis. I'm the co-founder of Ryder. In a nutshell, we're actually building the world's first social wallet. What that means is we embed your on-chain identity or NFT with what we call near-field communication in hardware. With this you can actually use your on chain assets within the physical space.

Amanda Cassatt (Serotonin and Mojito): I'll go ahead. Amanda Cassatt, founder, and CEO of Serotonin. I started working in the space in 2015 on the Ethereum project as CMO of ConsenSys where I built the first Web3 marketing team responsible for bringing Ethereum to market, and a lot of the first web three products like MetaMask, Infura, [unintelligible 03:15].

Serotonin is the first and largest web three marketing firm. We also do Web2 to Web3 transformation and recruiting services. we spin out products. Our first product was Mojito, the leading NFT e-commerce infrastructure used by Sotheby's, CAA, and others, and more recently, Franklin, which is crypto native payroll for Web3 companies. 

Elizabeth (Host): I’m so excited to have you on this space. Even from hearing your name back during my time at Sotheby's when you launched the Metaverse, it was so exciting to see that and great to have you here to share your perspective. Jack, we have a board ape in the house. 

Jack (Momentify): Thank you so much for inviting me. I've been in Web3 for about a year now. Previously, I was head of product cybersecurity company, where actually interestingly, digital twins have a very different application. Since being Web3, I've consulted for projects like Superlative Secret Society, Cold-blooded Creeps. I founded with a bunch of friends, The Weirdos, which I've got a mint tomorrow if anyone's interested. I've also founded a Web3 research community focused on collectively understanding the capabilities around Web3.

Now, I'm exclusively focused on Momentify as the founder. We are a Web3 platform for live music, and our aim is to digitally encode the experiences of live music of individuals on the blockchain. Again, irrelevant here, because we're effectively trying to create these digital twins of human memories and human experiences, which is a little bit different, but I hope I’ve got something to contribute today.

Elizabeth (Host): Absolutely. We're so thrilled to have you in this space to share your thoughts. Also, Amanda, I didn't catch if you mentioned, but I love that you were also launching some of the first NFT galleries out there. It’s really exciting group of speakers here from the Stacks ecosystem and beyond. 

Before we get deep into technical innovations and best practices around NFT twinning with what Ryder is working on and perhaps some other applications. I'd like to take a step back and talk about the trend that we're seeing with luxury brands adopting blockchain technology. 

What are some of the main advantages or benefits of NFT digital twins that you're seeing brands leverage today?

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): Bulgari, fairly recently, created the thinnest watch. When people bought the watch, it came with an NFT. For high price luxury items, there's a longstanding tradition of authenticating their provenance with certificates, and so it's a really easy cognate to start making these certificates of authenticity.

That's the base level starting point. People already have these paper certificates. Why not digitize those certificates? If you're going to digitize those certificates, why not make them ownable and tradeable on their own? Then the next leap is, Well, if you have a digital certificate that's ownable and tradeable on its own, why not use the substrate of Web3 to give it other Web3 properties?

Maybe you can redeem it from more tokens. Maybe you can use it to join a community. Maybe it's a membership to something. Maybe you can yield farm it and fractionalize it. Maybe you can use it to claim something that's held in storage. Maybe it's an art piece in and of itself, and you can use an incentive mechanism to keep it linked with its physical counterpart or not. That thing can be used in games. It can be brought into metaverse worlds and that's a passport into using that object in digitally native contexts. There are a lot of different steps there, but I think the first logical step is replacing the receipts. It makes a lot of sense that I would start with luxury, where there's already this tradition of certificates of authenticity, and I think that's going to trickle out everywhere and just replace the receipt. 

Louise (Ryder): I would love to jump in here, but first I would love to give a shout to Amanda because I know she's in Web Summit and she just came from a panel. I love the hustle that she's just jumping on a Twitter space after her panel. 

If I'm going to summarize the main advantages of digital twins, I'm going to put it into your words. Based from what Amanda said, the first one is authenticity. How do you know that Birkin bag is actually authentic? Then the next move is ownership, so who owns this authentic piece of a luxury brand? The last term that I'm going to use is usability. How easy it is for a normal user to actually jump on a digital twin. These three keywords are super important when we talk about the main advantages for digital twins when it comes to luxury brand which we can then wrap more later. 

Elizabeth (Host): Definitely. I think these are all such wonderful points around utility and even client relations and offering special subsequent experiences for loyal customers and the need for tracking provenance throughout the life cycle of these luxury pieces. 

Jack, perhaps you could even add more to this from this perspective around the security and the supply chain?

Jack (Momentify): If I was going to add one additional word, I think it would be interoperability, especially with luxury goods when people are spending thousands of pounds or tens of thousands of pounds on the items, then just having the ability to flex them in the real world is one thing. But as people are increasingly spending more time online, then it's going to become more important to have those proofs and be able to utilize those online. 

I think NFT digital twins opens up a whole world of opportunity for us to be able to kind of export that value from the real world and utilize it across the multiple metaverses, on Twitter, where our virtual personas exist as well. Otherwise, we're really underinvesting and not fully utilizing and getting the ROI of our spending on luxury goods. I think those are the key things for me. 

Elizabeth (Host): Such a good point, especially the metaverse utility. We're seeing, especially with the younger generations, where do they go to show off? They go online. They want to show their next big luxury purchase from their social media. As we're seeing this shift, perhaps this is also why luxury brands are turning towards having this option to also showcase pieces digitally as well. 

I would be curious if anybody would like to add on to that through the perspective of trends in the metaverse.

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): We work with Decentraland directly at Serotonin, and we also have worked with our clients to create metaverse activations in other Web3-enabled metaverse worlds like sandbox. we've also just started working with Wilder World, which is the first HD photorealistic, metaverse world. if you're thinking about things like art, if you put all the effort into creating art piece in real life, you don't want to create a cartoon version of that when you bring it into the metaverse, you want to bring it in exactly how it looks, so I think there are going to be multiple metaverse worlds that are all really relevant. I think for luxury retailers, the metaverse is the new Madison Avenue or the new Rodeo Drive, and it's a place where they're all going to need to have a storefront, and that storefront can be more engaging than a normal store. That store is really just a venue for the brand to engage with their Web3 community and build their Web3 communities and have a much more 360 experience with them than they'd be able to have in the traditional worlds. Like we saw with the rise of e-commerce and the decline of physical shopping. Covid obviously accelerated that. I think e-commerce is going to need to be reinvented in this context, and digital twining is just the beginning of that. 

Elizabeth (Host): Absolutely. These are all such good points all around. Looking at the increasing demand for tracking in regard to sustainability initiatives. For example, the fashion brand, Chloe, is looking into how they can improve their supply chain progress in a circular economy with digital twinning and having these digital ID. Seeing how brands can now move on from not just selling their products, but also managing the life cycle of their products as well. 

From an investment perspective, would you also see this as increasing the value of products? 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): Yes, I would say that there's a different mentality for people that are buying digital ownable goods in NFT form than people that are buying purely physical objects. I think people are willing to spend more if there's an ownable piece of digital space, because they often see that value as being parked rather than being consumed because they could believe that they could more fungibly exit out of that crypto asset if they wanted to. Obviously, if there's the liquidity and the demand to do so.

But if you think about it, when you're buying, for example, a membership card to a physical space, you're usually consuming those assets rather than just parking them. You don't expect to be able to recoup that value if you no longer want to use it. Same with a piece of art or a piece of clothing. Obviously at the very high end, people think that there's a secondary retail market, but this brings that secondary retail market down, like you can access at a lower threshold of price point. You can access it more easily in NFT trading platforms, and so I think people are willing to spend more. 

Elizabeth (Host): Yes, fascinating. Especially with this angle of flexibility, it sounds as well like to be able to access these products from anywhere and anytime. Also, in regard to digital twins breaching this physical barrier right now, there's this opportunity to be able to receive products even faster and you can show them off online, and as the mantra goes, “Time is money.” Here, we're also perhaps increasing the value through that way as well. 

Louise (Ryder): Just to add to the conversation because I think it's a win-win for both parties. You have the brands and then you have the user. From the user perspective, I think what's kind of interesting is the product provenance. For me as a user, I can actually see, “Okay, this Balenciaga bag that I have was actually owned by Marilyn Monroe.” In that sense, it actually increases the value of a specific asset. Now, from the brand perspective, you can actually imagine if Rolex have a digital twins with all their watches. You can see the aggregated total sales for Rolex in the secondary market. If you see how big the total secondary market for these watches, then it's a chain effect. It's more so the aggregation of data. I think product provenance can actually drive up the prices for these digital twins. 

Elizabeth (Host): It seems like it's a way to— In regard to provenance, you're empowering the customer because they know that not only are they purchasing something that they're going to be able to enjoy themselves, but also when they resell it, or on the other side, purchasing, you are able to see this fully transparent and traceable product through the digital twin. it's a proof of purchase that can be used to institute these strong counterfeiting mechanics here. 

Jack or Ken, anything to add on to that in regard to other benefits and advantages that we're seeing through this technology? 

Jack (Momentify): I think it's super interesting. I'm not an expert on luxury items. I own very few, but I understand that people are investing in luxury items with a speculative gains mindset. I think it can only be good for those items when you're comparing items with digital twins versus items without digital twins. It's clear that the digital twin use case offers a bunch more of additional utility. It's the foundation for the type of value that Louise was speaking about being able to prove provenance of previous owners. I think there's definitely something there.

Ken (Xverse): Yeah. Also, the obvious improvement of a digital twin versus having a hard copy of a receipt or something is that these NFTs that are written to the blockchains are much more durable. Even if you end up losing your receipt, there's something that you can use to prove that you have an authentic version of the product. Also, just the nature of cryptography. It's much harder to counterfeit something compared to a code on a piece of paper. 

Elizabeth (Host): Definitely, it sounds like— For example, I once heard the case of somebody wanting to auction off Jacqueline Kennedy's plastic pearls. How do we prove that these are actually Jackie's? Because if you were to purchase any plastic pearls, it could be costing $30, but it's the fact that they're owned by Jackie that actually is what makes them priceless. It could be something that is even beyond luxury. This is something where we're seeing this need to be able to track the authenticity of something that it's going to also drive further value.

So just digging in a bit deeper here. Ryder, I know you've been busy, heads down building in regard to this technology. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're working on, dropping off here and out right now? Then perhaps Ken also, would love to have you add onto that. 

Louise (Ryder): at Ryder, we have three products. the first one is Bitcoin domain names. you can buy an NFT community handle of your choice. just go to handles at Ryder dot id. the second product that we're launching is the digital twin tags. what's different with the current tags out there is we don't use conventional NFC tags or QR code that’s linked to a centralized website. Instead, Ryder digital twin tags produce a cryptographic signature that can't be falsified, so whoever owns the physical object will always control the on-chain NFT. you probably have seen the tweet of a Azuki where they're trying to popularize the terms “Scan-to-own” is the same thing. “Redeem and retain” can actually be the future of luxury brands by using the digital twin tag. 

Elizabeth (Host): We'll be curious to know why NFC tags, because some of the examples I was talking about earlier with luxury brands are more about twinning, like having a visual representation of the product, whereas NFC technology, or near-field communication is more about having this communication between the product and the NFT itself. We'll be curious to know more about why you think this is adding value. 

Louise (Ryder): I'm going to go back to the three key words, which is all about authenticity, ownership, and usability. I think for us in this space, we've been at long with protocol wars like which blockchain is the best, whatever. But by the end of the day, if we're talking about onboarding the next billion user, the underlying blockchain doesn't really matter.

Us, builders should focus on what can we do to make it a frictionless experience? If you look at technological adoption, smartphones now has NFC, so the most logical sense for us is to build something with nearfield communication. You tap into a human social behavior, which the action here is tapping, and you combine it with crypto. In that sense, you're able to have the growth vehicle and inflection point for adoption. That's the use case for NFC. That's why we're building infrastructure, which is mainly focused on NFC and all other stuff because let's be honest here, there's a lot of guys on the protocol level, but are few on the user level. At Ryder, we want to win the infrastructure, which is hardware plus software. 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): I have to push back on the idea that underlying blockchain doesn't matter to people that are interested in NFTs, because if you're building on an L1 blockchain that can turn on and off, or that can be shut down, or that might go away in a few years, that could destroy all the value that the creators are bringing in, and it could destroy the value of the actual NFTs that you hold or prevent a holder from being able to actually access their NFTs.

I think it's essential that builders be very selective and thoughtful about their use of blockchain l1platform, and that also buyers and traders be thoughtful about what L1 is being built on. Meanwhile, I think that there are multiple interesting platforms to build an NFT on. I obviously think Ethereum's really interesting. Polygon is really interesting when you want to go for zero gas fees. There are a lot of other really exciting options out there that meet the criteria. I've also been increasingly getting interested in the Cosmos Ecosystem and the whole paradigm shift toward the idea that value isn't just concentrated at the protocol level but is rather also concentrated at the application level, and that apps or DApps could each have their own chains that all share a consensus mechanism and share cryptographic security. I think that's a real paradigm shift, and we might see a world where every DApp has its own Cosmos space chain and the value really is at the application and user layer as opposed to just at that protocol layer, which effectively ends the protocol wars.

Ken (Xverse): I think Amanda makes a really good point about the blockchain that you're on really matters. I think you can make a case for Bitcoin in this case as well, because compared to Ethereum, Bitcoin right now might not have the full spectrum of smart contract capabilities, but it's being built and apps are being built. Bitcoin being the oldest blockchain and the most stable, having the most hash power security, it can really make a case that if you want to use it for digital twins or something that tracks provenance of products, it's really a great blockchain for that use case. 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): I've always been excited and optimistic about more of those kinds of use cases coming out of the blockchain ecosystem, which is why I've been watching what a lot of folks on this chat have been doing over a long period of time. Ethereum originally emerged out of an effort to build something with Bitcoin or on Bitcoin, and so I certainly salute those efforts as well. 

Elizabeth (Host): Wonderful. Just loving this conversation around various cross chains. The importance around figuring out which is the most important one to build on, which makes sense for different projects and for artists and creators alike to ensure that they're building on a firm foundation here. It's not going to go away as Amanda pointed out. 

Circling back on this NFC technology, I just wanted to dive a bit deeper into this. I want people to realize that this is actually something that these tags we would need to physically embed in these physical objects. Do we see any hesitations around this as we strive to come up with a product, this digital twin that is as the words of Nick Carter, he calls them “Figital”. We now have the NFT, and we have the physical product. We want to have something that is fully entangled together as one item just existing in different metaphysical realms. How do we see some blockades coming perhaps for some luxury brands and hesitations around embedding something like a physical tag in their precious items that they have been putting a lot of quality resources into.

Jack (Momentify): I think obviously it doesn't work for every physical object, especially with luxury objects, but I think what we can bet on is that the physical form factor of these things is going to improve over time. They're going to become more subtle. They're going to become more temp resistant. They're going to trend towards something that is more suitable for every type of physical object. But equally, you have to understand the luxury brands treating their goods like magical items and not wanting them to be contaminated with outside inputs. 

Louise (Ryder): Then just to add to what Jack said. I had this conversation yesterday and even today with the guys at Rider. I think the question is what does the product life cycle of a user looks like. These are the details that I think we should work on moving forward because right now, we have the base concept, and from this base concept, we need to evolve it in a way that it actually fits the current lifecycle of users on how they actually buy these luxury brands. That is from purchasing all the way to shipping. Will NFT marketplaces actually evolve to support what we call these “Figitals”? Marvin just send me a message about, he was saying because for luxury brands, NFC tags are cheap and currently you have their stores with these tags, so when you walk out of the store, you have this like radio signal. “Oh, somebody's stealing.” It's the same thing. You can just upgrade these tags with the more modern version ones, and that's the logical next step for them. But right now, the question is how does it fit with their current environment? 

Elizabeth (Host): Also, to add on to that. I keep playing devil's advocate here, so sorry Louis. Is there a concern about using NFT technology. This is reliable. This is built on a blockchain. Now we're working with something that's physical, a physical tag. How else is this adding to help with battling counterfeit products? You mentioned that they're quite inexpensive, but could somebody then remove this chip and put it in another product?

Louise (Ryder): I think it's the same thing. For example, I buy a Rolex watch and I still have the certificate of authenticity. It’s still in the box. By the end of the day, it adds value to the luxury item that I have. The same thing with tags. By the end of the day, you can embed it on a certain product maybe at some point, you lose the tag, it depreciates the value of your current item. When it comes to luxury brands, it makes sense because they understand ownership and authenticity. There's a lot of things that these companies actually get. The same with everything. If I lose my certificate of authenticity with my Rolex, it actually depreciates in value because it's not a complete set anymore. 

Jack (Momentify): The security around the cloning of the tags is probably more important than the risk of theft of a particular bag and then a tag being switched from that bag to a new bag. There's lots of angles and threat vectors to consider. 

Elizabeth (Host): Absolutely. Perhaps another point here is, even avoiding the inflation of goods, for example, for brands like Louis Vuitton, there are so many counterfeits out there, and in this case, even if somehow somebody were to take the time to strategically remove a chip and put it into a counterfeit, even then you would still have a limited number of NFT twins available. If there's some kind of limited edition out there, it wouldn't change the number of NFTs released of these twins. 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): I think sometimes we take ideas from the physical world and import them into the digital world. Occasionally, now we're starting to take ideas from the Web3-enabled digital world and bring them into the physical. The big idea with counterfeit that's going to come from the Web3 world into the physical world is the idea that with NFTs, you can make infinite copies. There's nothing to stop anyone from doing that, but it doesn't matter because they're valueless without the on-chain provenance. You can right-click save a Bored Ape, but that doesn't mean that anyone would ever buy it. If they're savvy enough to look at the fact that it doesn't track back to the original mint from the Bored Ape Yacht Club. I think we're going to see that same idea transmit into the physical world that there are going to be knockoffs, there are going to be fakes, there are going to be copies, and it's almost pointless to try to stop it. All you can do is create a better system to track the provenance and stop wasting resources stopping something that's just going to happen anyway. Instead, just create the more dependable provenance system, so that it's valueless when you create a fake. 

Louise (Ryder): If we want to talk about creating a dependable system, my co-founder and our CDO, Marvin is actually in the call and he was texting me the entire time on how the tags that we're building cannot be cloned. Just like how your credit card, when you tap it, it can’t also be cloned. Just want to dive in deeper, Marvin is actually in the audience. 

Elizabeth (Host): Diving into this further, we see how this technology makes sense for luxury brands, but I also, would be curious to perhaps shift gears a bit and explore how this technology can help further with corporate adoption and also for creators and artists and perhaps some future use cases beyond where brands are currently leveraging this technology.

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): Well, I'm happy to take a first crack at that, which is part of it is really an expanded definition of who is a creator. It's any right to an IP holder. That includes something like the NBA that did Top Shot. It includes something like Disney that has obviously a huge catalog. It includes something like Mattel that has all of these different product lines. Those things are “creators” in this context because they're bringing content assets from a Web2 context into a Web3 context and monetizing them. 

Similarly, there's a whole host of online creators, whether you're a poet or a photographer or someone creating a membership club that are bringing new assets and new IP into Web3, and maybe it's a Web3 native assets in IP that didn't previously exist in Web2. There are all kinds of tools for those people. 

Mojito, our first product is actually working on something in that domain that's going to be really exciting for creators to be able to immediately get to market with native digital assets. That's something we're really focused on. 

Louise (Ryder): Just to add to what Amanda said, maybe Jack could actually chime in here because he knows more like the music industry, but I did a research when I was in university about music industry and there's a big value leakage when it comes to the royalties of artists afterwards. I think 12% goes back to artists, it's the same for luxury brands. For luxury brands, at the moment, you see that there's actually a big secondary market. For example, I'm going to go over luxury brands. You have Rolex, you have Chanel, and you have Hermes. Rolex on the secondary market goes up to 40%.

Chanel goes back by 11.8%. The next one, Hermes’ Birkin bag actually goes up by 30%. These are the bare minimums. Now, imagine if there are digital twins and the royalty bake in on these digital twins, so when you put this on the marketplace, the brands can actually capture the value of the secondary market.

For them, as a public trading company, especially in a traditional one, you would want to capture this revenue. For them, instead of having this big value leakage, they can actually capture it. If I was the CEO of Chanel, probably I’d say, “Let's go. Let's do this,” because they see there's another income stream that they can actually take.

Elizabeth (Host): Yes, fascinating point. I was coming from Steinway and Sons earlier, and this is one of those rare luxury products out there that appreciates in value over time. When people ask what is Steinway's biggest competitor, it's not these other piano brands like Yamahas, it's actually used Steinway pianos. It’s definitely a huge opportunity to tap into luxury brands here where we're seeing that in the secondary market, oftentimes, the value of these items is appreciating. Does anyone want to add onto that? 

Ken (Xverse): I just wanted to go back to the point Amanda made about this being available to not just bigger brands, but also the smaller creators. Bigger brands have the resources to build their own system even without having a blockchain and having this technology. For smaller creators, like an artist or a musician, they're not going to have the ability to build out their own system to track provenance and authenticity. It’s where this technology comes in, it's open source and decentralized. Basically, once you build it, it's there. Essentially anyone can take advantage of it regardless of how big your business is. 

Louise (Ryder): Just to add to what Ken said, it also applies— Okay, let's remove the term luxury brands, and we're empowering artists as well because by the end of the day, if you're an artist, you get popular, but then you don't really see the secondary value of it as well. It's the same thing. By the end of the day, the goal for this technology is what you call user-owned internet. Everything that you do online, you capture. 

Elizabeth (Host): All great points around. I do have a few more questions for this space today regarding authenticity and how in Amanda's point, anyone can just copy these NFTs. How do we see social channels, for example, adapting this further? Are people really going to take the time to look at the provenance? Whereas you can see something, you can tell the quality of something physically, so you can tell if it's real or not. Whereas the NFT, somebody can just copy and paste it and put it as a PFP. Do we see applications and various channels adapting to connect the verification between the blockchain and these various places? 

Jack (Momentify): It's actually much easier to learn how to verify an NFT or to check the provenance of an NFT than it is to know the telltale signs that a particular brand of handbag or jeans or watch has been faked. I think actually it brings some kind of homogeneity to the act of having to check and verify the provenance of an item. Maybe I'm a little bit too technocentric, but I think it should make it easier. 

Elizabeth (Host): Just shifting gears a bit, we were talking about various blockchains and building onto these firm foundations, so we'd be curious to dive deeper into how do we see Bitcoin's role here in a multichain world as we start to move into this interconnected sense of networks from the application side to infrastructure. Are there any related pros and cons of adapting this NFT twinning technology on different blockchains? Louis, how do you see this being built out with Ryder? 

Louise (Ryder): You know me, I'm a multichain guy. Stacks was my first love, but at the end of the day, we’re multichain. For us, I think it depends on which kind of branch you work with because certain protocols are for certain use cases. Maybe if a brand that wants to buy a tag, okay, we want to be on Solana because we want to use it on a festival or like a high-volume kind of event. This tag, imagine a Pokémon Go live in the city. You scan this little tags, you get something. That could be on Solana and maybe you want to work with Gucci, then you have to be on Ethereum.  For us, when we launch Ryder tags this Q4, it's going to be EVM-friendly, Stacks-based as well. But by the end of the day, you, as a user, have a choice. Crypto isn't a zero-sum game. As a user, you would want an exit from any protocol at any time. I think the most difficult thing is implementation because within certain ecosystems is siloed and fragmented, but I think right now, you see there's a lot of bridge. It’s still debatable, but I think probably there's going to be a one marketplace that will aggregate all of it and win. We'll see. 

Elizabeth (Host): Super. Thanks so much for chiming in there Louise. Really appreciate your perspective and really thanks for all of our speakers today. We are coming close to the end of our space, so I would like to take a round from our speakers to hear where can people go to learn more and connect with you. Perhaps Louise, we’ll start with you since you just had the mic. 

Louise (Ryder): I think the most important plug that I'm going to make today is Ryder pre-sale of the first 5,000 devices. From the pre-sale, it's going to be seven months of waiting time, depends if there is no hurdle on the manufacturing process. The pre-sale is on December 10, $300. The mint is on Ethereum and Stacks. That's the plugin. Ryder.id 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): I'll go quickly. Serotonin is at serotonin.co. Spelled like the neurotransmitter serotonin. then Mojito, our first product spin out is at Mojito.xyz and at Mojito_NFT on Twitter. I'm at amanda.eth at Amanda Cassatt, C-A-S-S-A-T-T. You can follow me. then I also have a book coming out on April 4th, 2023, which is called Web3 Marketing: A Handbook for the Next Internet Revolution, which is coming out from Wiley. It's one of the first ever Web3 business books, so definitely pick that up. The pre-order link will be dropping soon.

Elizabeth (Host): We're definitely going to be getting an order of that book for the whole Xverse team. Thanks so much. Super excited to read it and I’ve been keeping an eye on it. Love the cover art and yes, really thrilled to have you on this space today, Amanda. Thank you. 

Amanda (Serotonin and Mojito): Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Jack (Momentify): I'm afraid I don't have too much to pitch, but I'd love to speak to anybody. Jump into my DMs and they're always open. We will be launching Momentify over the coming weeks and months. If you want to follow Momentify, it's in my bio and you can find a link through to it there and follow along and we'll be making some announcements shortly.

Ken (Xverse): Cool. then finally, you can find Xverse on our website at Xverse.app. We are currently on Android and iOS, and we'll be on desktop very soon. 

Elizabeth (Host): As always, at Xverse, we're here to put our community first and help onboard users to Web3 economy. Be sure to follow us and join our community and let us know if you have any feedback on the app as we continuously work to build the most advanced Bitcoin Web3 wallet. Thanks so much again everyone for your time. Really great to have everyone on here and stay tuned and we will see you next time. 

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